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Nice flame figure on the maple mario.

Not maple, but myrtle(AKA: Bay Laurel)...

The brushes I look for have a "tight", denser foam, while others will have a 'looser', less dense(bigger 'bubbles') foam. Yes, always brush in the same direction, with the same side of the brush, and yes again, don't do the "wipe against the side of the can" deal. That creates air bubbles in both the brush, and in the can, which will greatly accelerate curing within the can, ruining your varnish. And brush slowly!

No acetone! It's one of the things that I am sensitized to... I use turpentine as a thinner, and a few drops of japan drier. The drier helps to completely cure the varnish. I use foam brushes in order to minimize the amount of paint thinners/cleaners/solvents in my shop. Not so much for environmental friendliness, but because I have health issues with so many solvents.

Isn't the Behlen Rock Hard finish marked as a hard French Polish of sorts? I've been thinking of giving that a try soon and I was under the impression that you could use the typical FP method of finishing with the muneca.

Thanks - may look for some japan drier to test.

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Thank You and Best To All

I see. Thanks for the reply.

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George :-)

Perhaps you are thinking of Qualasole, marketed at the "modern French polish"? Rockhard is a fairly typical oil varnish, although harder and more brittle than a hardware store polyurethane.

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Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

No acetone! It's one of the things that I am sensitized to... I use turpentine as a thinner, and a few drops of japan drier. The drier helps to completely cure the varnish. I use foam brushes in order to minimize the amount of paint thinners/cleaners/solvents in my shop. Not so much for environmental friendliness, but because I have health issues with so many solvents.[/quote]

You should try the Sutherland Welles Uralkyd 500... I am also VERY sensitive to chemicals, this stuff has no ill effect on me at all, and it is the highest quality finish out there. Smells like oranges, finishes like a dream.

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Guitar Maker and Purveyor of the World's Finest Tonewoods
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Nice thread......thanks to everyone for sharing their info.

Killer mandolin Mario!

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

OK, coat #3 sanded out very nicely once again, this time with 400 3M Gold.
The 3M 400 seems to be just aggressive enough to level quickly and it feels "right".
I added a touch more of the brushing thinner as well as acetone to improve the flow of this stuff. Coat #4 went OK
I've decided however to move to smaller brushes, I've been using a little flat artist brush to do the inside of the peghead slots (I'm doing a classical) and I decided to do the whole peghead with it....much more controllable.
(The rather thick 2" brush from Epiphanes is fine for areas such as the back but I found it hard to control around the heel to body join etc. I can see where it might work OK if you had a separate body and neck with a solid peghead).

I'll be trying a 1 1/2" brush on the body, a 1" for the flat peghead surfaces and still a small 1/2" artist brush for the inside of the slots as I move into coat #5 and try to continue to refine the surface quality (which is indeed improving) through the cycles.

I use a one inch brush for everything.

That's encouraging Mario. This stuff is very brushable (up to a point) so the control of a smaller brush may be just the ticket for me.

Coat #5 went on the best yet using the 1" and 1 1/2" brushes.
I'm finally coming up with a technique to avoid build ups at the edges......
Still drying very nicely and sanding back with 400 3M Gold.

Five or so coats (on rosewood) has now produced a nicely filled level surface which after leveling with 800 3M Gold has buffed (preliminarily) out to a good polish.

My observations:
The need to suspend brushes in thinner means you have much more liquid refuse to get rid of after the process than simple FP (after a while the thinner turns into a gelatinous glob after it has absorbed a certain amount of the varnish).
Do I now feel this finish is advantageous over FP?
Not really, though on a rosewood guitar acheiving a poreless surface is quicker with the varnish. On something like Maple I see little advantage in that the application time is quicker than FP but you absolutely have to give it the 24 hours to dry before sanding for subsequent coats (note I didn't use the Japan dryer). Plus as I mentioned there is a lot of "stuff" (varnish, accelerator, thinner, acetone, naptha to wipe with between coats, brushes, brush container etc.) to deal with. No comparison to the simple shellac, pad and thinner for FP.
It is however I think a viable alternative for those looking for a more rugged (though perhaps less renewable) finish than FP.

I demoed the Epifanes on a couple of scrap pieces and I found it can't really be applied right out of the can, it's way too thick or as someone else put it - concentrated. But with just the right amount of thinner it went on fairly well and leveled well but after a couple weeks it never really got that hard. Very easy to dent with a finger nail.

I have read all the advised additives, thinners, driers and perhaps acetone to get it to actually harden but IMO it wants to behave like what it is, a varnish, and maybe over time it will get hard, and maybe if you get the correct proportions of all the needed additives it will become a nice finish for a guitar but for me it's simply not worth the effort when the Uralkyd 500 flows perfectly out of the can, levels very, very well, dries rock hard, and buffs out to a great finish.

It's obvious that Epifanes can be used with great results but I prefer a finish ready apply right out the can without the added science and effort to achieve a great finish.

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Larry - I haven't tried the Epiphanes but have played with a couple of other varnishes (Ace, Pratt & Lambert). I've also done some testing with Sutherland Welles Murdoch's Uralkyd 500 and found it to be pretty much ready to go out of the can, at least for brushing, and it seems to harden much faster and to a harder film than the others. I haven't finished a guitar with it yet but it seems promising based on the testing I've done.

The U500 appeals to me more than the Epiphanes for the reason you mentioned...not having to mix a bunch of components to get the right formula. Worth a try of you're looking for a varnish finish option.

Larry, did you add the accelerator?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

No Todd, for the reasons stated. I have enough to do in the shop already and if a finish requires that much mixing care and various additives to achieve a good finish I'm simply not interested, especially when there are other finishes that equal or surpass the finish quality and require no such effort.

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Okay, understood. The reason I was asking is because you were talking about the varnish not being satisfactorily hard. Adding the accelerator, which contains more resins, makes it harder. Otherwise, it will perform like a spar varnish, which is, by definition, softer (so as to be more flexible, in order to withstand the extremes of humidity/moisture that the wood on boats is subjected to).

If you're happy with the U500, great. And if you don't want to do the mixing, understood. Just so it's also understood that if you haven't added the accelerator, you haven't really given the Epifanes a fair trial in terms of its final finish quality as a guitar varnish. I'm not trying to give you a or anything, just wanting to keep the discussion clear, in terms of the conclusions being drawn.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Yup, I get it Todd. And each of us have a different direction and purpose for pursuing such things as a guitar finish. Mine has got to be a simpler path at this time as my time is too precious in the shop to do too much more experimenting when I have a product that works great.

I just can't see why all the effort to get a 'formula' right when other products work great. If that works for you, then by all means.

I also have a bit of an unfair advantage, having used both products.

How is your trial coming with the Epifanes? Curious what you've discovered.

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Not exactly a huge effort to add a bit of liquid resin to a can of varnish. You make it sound like it takes a couple of hours. Just saying.

Really Michael? Did I really make it sound like it takes a couple hours? Really?

Please re-read my posts - merely expressing my feelings and sharing my experience, hoping it will help someone. If someone prefers creating a 'formula' for a finish, no matter how long it takes, then I say go for it - it's just not for me.

What finish do you use? Truly curious, thanks.

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I think the only real experimenting going on with regards to Epifanes is learning the method of application, same as any other finish, U500 included. There's really not much experimentation needed to get the mix right, it's pretty well documented and if you didn't use the prescribed mix then you really don't have the advantage of having used both products. And maybe it's just me but 5 min of mixing added to the finishing process isn't a deal breaker here. It's a very well proven finish, used by a number of top builders for some time now.

That's the reason I'll be going with epifanes for my foray into the world of varnish on my next couple of builds: it's proven and I've personally seen and handled enough instruments finished with it to be sold.
Laurent Brondel's finishes are probably the best varnish finishes I've seen and possibly my favorite finish period from an aesthetic standpoint. If you read his posts and/or talk to him he's tried most varnishes out there that would be suitable for guitars and when he says epifanes is his favorite that's good enough for me.

I'm sure the U500 is good stuff but I just haven't seen any examples of its use that have blown me away and I've never seen or handled, in person, an instrument finished with it. That probably has as more to do with the fact that it's newer and not nearly as many people have been using it than the quality of the finish itself but that's still enough to keep me from using it, at least for now.

Good points William. I'm reading you'll be trying the Epifanes for the first time? VERY curious as to how you get on with it.

I'm a bit curious as to why you wouldn't purchase both products and do your own comparison? Of course great results from a great craftsman can't be ignored but still curious as to why there's not more personal testing of the various finishes.

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I use a number of different types. Straight shellac to Spirit Varnish concoctions. A few Oil varnishes but all of them are natural Oil varnishes. Some made by myself. They would all be considered too soft for SS and Classical guitars - but OK for Lutes and such. Seems a bit odd seeing as the Lute is pretty much held to the body just like any Guitar but that's the way it is.
Anyway, use whatever you like. At the end of the day it's probably just a bit of gunk on a bit of wood. If it was left to me I'd just put a couple sealer coats of shellac, a bit of wax and be done with it. I'm being serious. Probably not much more than 1 hour.

I'm sure there will be a bit of a learning curve as far as application method goes, that's to be expected with anything. I'm mostly a french polish guy (mostly build classicals) but I have brushed finish on guitars before (water born KTM9 on my first few almost 9 yrs ago, not impressed with durability on the neck) so I'm relatively confident I'll pick it up relatively quickly.

I'm not going to purchase both products because I already know that Epifanes works great (and Laurent has been kind enough to post on this site and provide to anyone who contacts him his step-by-step process for achieving his awesome finish) and I don't really want to spend the extra money or time at this point.
That being said, if a bunch of instruments with great looking U500 finishes start popping up then I might give it a try sometime in the future.